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东方式思维的“一带一路”,会是中东难题的一条新路吗?

2019-04-26 08:04:42

因种种历史原因,以及近代以来西方外来势力的干预,中东部分问题长期复杂难解,一些地区始终处于战乱和贫困状态,甚至成为极端主义滋生的温床。

同时,作为“一带一路”无法绕过的一个地区,也作为中国在“走出去”过程中所必须面对的一个外部环境,今天的中东,对于中国人来说似乎不再那么遥远。

今年1月,联合国亚洲和平和解委员会秘书长、泰国外交部原副部长蔻博萨克先生接受中国天空宽频电视台董事长陈建成先生的专访,他谈到,不同于西方“线性思维”和“文明冲突论”的对抗式思路,“一带一路”所包含的东方式思维,技术的发展,以及“社会主义市场经济”,是否会成为中东人民的一份新的参考答案?

观察者网经授权整理访谈实录,供读者参考:

陈建成:我听了您刚才在论坛上的演讲,关于中东和平的主题,非常精彩。在我们的国家,中国人想到中东时,第一印象可能是恐怖主义,而且在中国大多数人的印象中,这也许就是为了控制石油,除了中东地区的国家,还有许多域外大国势力渴望掌控,然后控制权从一个国家转换到另一个国家。

现在我们从媒体上看到,美国似乎退出了中东。在您看来,谁会是下一个中东和平的调解者?

蔻博萨克:调解者必须是一个超级大国,必须是联合国安理会常任理事国,才能有能力和影响力尝试带来和平。因为这一地区在第二次世界大战前,就是被托管的地区,它当然被一些主要大国势力支配。

但是现在,我们看到其中一些国家不再是主要大国,比如法国、英国,他们拒绝了(责任),甚至现在美国都失去了兴趣,也许因为他们有太多的战争正在进行,也许因为他们需要处理国内经济问题,也许是因为他们对石油的依赖程度降低了,因为他们必须分享石油,他们还有其他非化石能源。俄罗斯过去也对这里感兴趣,但是俄罗斯也有一些经济上的限制。

因此,排除了上述这些国家,我认为我们不得不说,中国,或许现在要承担起这个责任,承担起为中东带来和平的领导责任。因为中国具备所有条件,经济发达;军事力量不断增长,因为当你谈论和平时,有时候必须全副武装,才能够得到应有的尊重;另一点非常重要,中国在联合国安理会中拥有否决权;中国是在人口方面最大的国家,而且必然会支持亚洲,我认为这一点也很重要。

我们可以为中东带来新的元素。过去的中东地区一直是受到大国竞争影响的地区,这不是来自东方的影响,而是来自西方的影响,所以中东是受到西方影响的地区。我认为,现在事情正在发生变化,人们正在更多地向东看。实际上中东是东方的一部分,所以东方国家可能现在可以带来更多新的视角。

所以就像今天这个会议的基础是三个主题,第一当然是和平;但是和平不会自我实现,必须有经济发展,人们必须吃饭,必须有工作,必须满足安全需求,保障他们家人的生存;但经济发展本身仍不是唯一的答案,经济发展必须以某种理想来实现,必须有信仰,什么样的信仰呢?相信正义,相信自由,相信人类平等,相信人人生而平等,在经济发展过程中,不能只让一部分人越来越富有,而仅由市场经济发展带来的贫富差距越拉越大。

但是中国现在发展起一种新的理论,社会主义市场经济,这意味着市场力量当然是好的,但必须与社会目标结合起来,这是一种人道主义的理想,我们发展经济是好的,但必须达到一定的社会目标,使人民满意。这是一个好的系统,使人民感到安全、满意、幸福。这一整套目标的实现,才能变成和平的基础。这是一个循环,和平带来经济发展,带来人民满意,人民满意带来和平,继续经济发展……

这是一种古老的(东方式)思维,我们看到一种历史周期。过去的西方式思维是线性的,前进到某处,前进到另一处,在遥远的未来设置一些目标。但对我们(东方人)来说,我们相信历史会自我重复,你不能忘记过去,但也不能被过去束缚,过去的事情在未来会重现。问题是周期性出现的,但循环不意味着固定不变,事情并非一成不变的,而是像车轮一样滚动向前,只是不像(西方思维那样)笔直平坦。历史的车轮与所有人一起滚动前进,经济发展,人民,社会,人民心中渴望带来和平的理想。这三点是本次会议已经确定的基本共识。

我认为,中国现在可以在这个进程中有所作为。我们需要一种新方法,一种新答案,我们需要一个关心人民的国家来做一些事情,不为了经济利益,不为了害怕某些事情,也不是因为这个地区离自己的国家很近。相对来说,(中东)离我们很远,离东亚国家很远,我们以前并不是很关心。但现在我们可以为人类,为处于困境中、对未来没有希望的人做一些事情,这是一个好现象。

我要补充一点,刚才我说到的养子亚辛(Yassin),当我们谈论和平、发展、人道主义等等宏大目标时,我们同时应该在脑海中想到某些人真实的面孔,我们到底是在帮助谁?这些人是谁?我们可以举行大型的会议,邀请许多贵宾来讨论,但这种会议实际上有多大的帮助呢?

或许我们可以把这位亚辛带出加沙,把或许来自叙利亚的年轻人们,至少一位、两位、三位、四位……带到这里来训练,让中国给予他们新的生活,新的希望,教他们学中文,未来中文将成为世界语言,教会他们如何管理市场的力量,教会他们如何管理经济发展,教会如何通过教育让人们仍然平等,平等地为每个人提供机会,不拉大贫富差距。这是我认为中国可以带到中东的新愿景。

陈建成:也许正因为如此,我们才提出“一带一路”倡议,不同地区的文明有不同的思维方式。

您刚才描述了一个关于人类未来的文化构想,东方和西方有两种不同的方向和道路,您刚才谈到的正是东方的路径。

那么关于“一带一路”,您能否给出一些观点,对于“一带一路”沿线的一些比较贫穷的小国,对于他们未来会有怎样的机会?对于中国政府来说,我们应该关注哪些事情?采取哪些行动?您能给出一些建议吗?

蔻博萨克:我认为这是一项新的举措,一个新的愿景,世界现在需要对未来的愿景。很多人关注未来,未来会发生什么?很不确定,这导致了很多不安全的因素。但这种共同命运的理念,由“一带一路”相连的共同命运,人们由此共同成长,共同发展,合作共赢,这是可以提供的一个答案。

对于“一带一路”,我们必须向人们展示,沿途所有人都将受益,这才是“一带一路”的概念。这与以往不同,过去,一条道路只是有利于起点和终点,他们从起点出售货物到终点,没有任何事情发生在整个沿途的人民身上,断点很多。但“一带”和“一路”是沿途每个人都能做出贡献的走廊,我认为这是一种用共同利益把人们联系在一起的理念,大家可以看到共同的命运。让我们回到“共同命运”这个理念,它不是从这里或那里的某一点开始,而是一个系列,一个经济带和道路组成的网络,在海洋和陆地上涉及和覆盖广大的地区。

在过去,中东的部分地区被绕过了,但根据“经济带”的想法,中东地区不会被绕过,它们将与陆上和海上的主要通道相连接。我认为我们应该去推广这一点,呼吁停止相互战斗,我们有一个共同的未来,共同的命运。我认为习主席一定也是这样想的,那就是每个人、每个家庭、村庄、社区和他们的国家,都有同样的梦想,那就是人们可以没有痛苦,没有战争,没有死亡,可以有工作,有收入,老年人有社会保障系统,所有的资源配置不再是像现在这样只是为了当下赚钱,而是为下一代保留资源环境。所以这是一个为了所有人的共同命运、共同利益的共同概念,我认为这是一个必须现在推广的新想法。

陈建成:您说得很好。但同时,我们也看到,在最近两年,我们采访了“一带一路”沿线不同国家的许多领导人,包括尼泊尔、印度、土耳其、柬埔寨、老挝等等。我们采访他们是为了解释“一带一路”、了解他们的需求,也许他们对中国的政策有不同的理解。我们实际上已经发现,很多国家加入了“一带一路”的倡议,但在与中国政府签署了协议后,他们推迟或取消协议,这种情况在沿线国家还不少。那么,您如何评论这种现象?

蔻博萨克:与政府层面的合作,当然你必须要处理,我认为,既然现在这个理念已经被政府层面接受了,现在我们就应该做更多民间的事情。

在沿线国家,不管他们是谁、什么宗教、什么种族、什么国家,对这些具体的个人来说,我设想这就像一列火车,你让许多人乘上火车,让他们互相见面交谈,对新的一代来说,他们会忘记这件事与政府和官方有关,他们会考虑很多别的事,拥有别的视角,我们就让他们花时间考虑和设想。政府是会变的,可能出现一个新政府,会有政变,会有选举,有的人会死等等之类,然后政府就变了,但是留下来的是人民。

我认为中国现在应该强调,这件事是为了普通人,给他们机会,给他们新的生活,他们也能够拥有那些中国政府为自己的人民所达到的成就。因为在全世界的范围内,从来没有哪个地方那么快,仅仅在10-20年的时间里,就让那么多人摆脱了贫困。你们应该把这个作为例子,告诉大家我们想通过“一带一路”,把这样的事情带到世界的其他地方,通过“海上丝绸之路”,通过“丝绸之路经济带”,穿过沙漠进入中东。

中东的那些边界线,都是人造的边界线,都是西方占领者画出来的,有时候这就是问题所在,人们因为一些看不见的线而战斗,到底是什么把他们分开?让他们战斗?我们应该超越这些边界,目前我们仅仅是为了某一片土地在战斗。我在中东有两位好朋友,他们都死于巴勒斯坦的亚西尔·阿拉法特之前,其中一位还送了我一件长袍,他对我说,他不得不战斗,因为他一无所有,没有家园,没有立足之地,没有土地。

与此同时,以色列前总理伊萨克·拉宾获得了诺贝尔和平奖,他写了一本书,把以色列那块土地形容为“没有小确幸梦想的容身之处”(No Room for Small Dreams: The Decisions That Made Israel Great ),他说,未来我们会看到,我们现在只是为了土地而战,但不会有“足够的”土地,谁划了土地的边界?这里属于约旦,这里属于叙利亚,这里属于伊拉克,外来的人来到这里,画出这些线,然后当地的人不断战斗,打了40年,50年。现在让我们看看技术发展,现在种植水果,苹果、番茄、橘子都不再需要土地,只需要用新的技术让它们生长,即使是水现在都可以从海里获得。那里的土地甚至不适合农业,不能耕种,但他们仍然为土地而战斗,反复被灌输“土地很重要”的观念,要为小片土地,为家园而斗争。

这些从感情上来说都是好的,是重要的,但与此同时,我们必须看到,技术发展如此之快,这才是希望所在:技术,技术,技术!

比如,你知道吗,现在有新的技术,也许10年之内,人就能在30分钟内从上海飞到洛杉矶。两地的人能变成邻居,甚至比你从街上走到家里都快,坐飞机从天上走,可能让你们像住在一起一样。所以这就是新的希望,所以停止为了一座城一条路一片土地的战争吧,因为新的技术就要来了。

我的这位朋友,伊扎克·拉宾已经去世,他在特拉维夫和雅法老城之间的海岸建了一座技术中心,把它交给了人民,他说过,技术会成为一切问题的答案。技术从哪里来?这些新的技术,新的社会,新的社区,新的资源,来自中国。

陈建成:是的,世界变化很大,所以人的思想也应该改变。但是我发现,有些东西,有些人的想法并没有改变,例如美国非常著名的学者亨廷顿写了一本书:《文明的冲突》,也许我们在谈论不断变化的想法,但有些思维并没有改变,您怎么看?

蔻博萨克:我不认为人是不能改变的,我相信变化,我相信人民有能力改变,能够超越人类文明的历史,因为人类已经改变了很多。人类的适应力比其他任何生物都要强,在我们泰国和东南亚地区,我们相信人类是动物中最高等的,我们拥有理解能力,是被祝福的,因而能够适应和改变。

所以我相信未来人们是可以改变的,也是会改变的,这取决于环境和形势。所以如果我们创造出新的选项,就可以对他们说,你们看,这里有更好的道路可以选择。再回到中国的例子,这并不是“华盛顿共识”,不是那种已经传播了四、五十年的理论,这是一种新的思想,关于如何组织社会,如何为人民提供足够的经济福祉,给子女提供教育,如何使用资源,给未来带来希望。

怎样科技引入进来在这些领域发挥作用,有许多新的思路。甚至比如中东的石油,也许是造成那么多冲突的原因,但是有了新技术,我们可以用风力发电,也许现在石油将不再重要,这只是一个例子,我们还必须看到很多其他事情。所以我认为未来是有希望的,我们必须保持这样的势头,告诉大家,不要被过去束缚。例如中国,已经突破了过去,现在是一个新的国家,新中国,但她同时可以有选择地保留旧传统和过去的好东西,但不能回到被过去束缚。

比如亨廷顿,他认为有文明冲突,例如伊斯兰教和基督教,但我们要记住,伊斯兰教历史上是在基督教之后1000年才出现的,是在公元1300年左右,而不是2018年或2019年出现的。在1000年前,基督教就像伊斯兰教一样,到处都是争斗,天主教徒在欧洲屠杀新教徒,争斗100多年,即使在第二次世界大战中,德国人和犹太人也互相仇恨,但他们现在已经改变了。

欧洲人改变了,他们的思想变得更能够适应,宗教更多地适应了新的变化。所以我认为,伊斯兰教也会改变的,现在他们不断争斗,什叶派和逊尼派就像新教徒和天主教徒一样不能相互接受,但是只要足够的时间,事情会发生变化。现在已经不再需要600年,700年,因为变化来得如此之快,因此一旦变革到来,创新到来,新事物到来,新技术到来,我相信伊斯兰世界会改变,而且比基督教世界的变化更快。在这样的阶段,确实会有冲突,因为他们处在运动中,正在融合,人类终将融合在一起。这就是希望所在。

所以我们要警惕那种理论,让人们只会想到对抗的方式,这样的思想也会导致实际的对抗,现在有一种强烈反对全球化和开放的思潮。有的人害怕某些国家变得强大,把他们比下去,他们感觉“我们是更好的”、“我们的种族是更好的”,我们必须打破这种思维。

例如中国,也可以说我们确实有一些边疆省份地理上距离中东比较近,也有恐怖主义势力的问题,但是我们必须以创造性的方式、合适的方法,而不是用西方式的过于极端和暴力地来处理这个问题,他们之前就没有处理好,才会出现第二次世界大战。

所以我认为,现在我们必须拥有这种理念,必须教育,必须对话,现在中国有能力把人们聚集在一起,因为他们有基金会、有大公司、国有企业,有这些资源的支持,人们愿意过来对话。在10或15年之前,谁会想到中东的和平会到这里来谈?5月15日是北京“中东和平日”(将举行“中东和平论坛”),这已经做到了。现在已经第三年、还会有第四年、第五年,成为一个传统,目标是至少有那么一天,传递这样的信息,停止杀戮,停止射击,关注你们的孩子们,看看人民的表情,我认为这会有所帮助。

陈建成:所以我们看到习主席在中国和世界做了这些事情,就像您刚才谈到的那样,所以您如何评价中国政府的所作所为?

蔻博萨克:是的,这是又一次尝试,因为很多其他国家都尝试过,并且失败了,他们有包袱,所以你看到他们过来的时候,一望便知,他开口会谈什么,“啊,又是谈石油”,他一抬手就知道他会这么做,他过去一直支持这个国家,他过去打过那个国家,他卖过武器。所以,中国现在是唯一一个可以“重新开始”的主要大国,可以扮演一个全新的角色,所以我认为这是一个机会。现在我们有一位强有力的领袖,拥有持续性的领导力,这是别的国家缺乏的,世界上没有其他国家拥有这样的(政策)连续性,在与人打交道的时候,别人会知道,这是中国的承诺,中国的国家主席做的承诺,是算数的,这是非常重要的。

(翻页:英文原版实录)

Mr. Chen:  I heard what you made speech in the forum.  That’s very wonderful, peace for the Middle East.

You see, in our country the people in China, when we think about Middle East, maybe it's words “tourism”.  And mainly in Chinese people thinking, maybe it’s because of the oil, control of oil.  And beside the Middle East countries, a lot of big power want to come.  And then maybe one changed to another one.  And we found now USA seems to withdraw from Middle East.  In your mind, if UAS withdral  from Middle East, who is the next one for that mediation of Middle East Peace?

Mr. Kobosak:  Well, it has to be a superpower, It has to be a member of the Security Council of United Nations permanent member, who will have the ability and the influence to try to bring peace.  Because that area had been under the jurisdiction before second world war of the United Nations, It was a trust territory.  It had been of course under the domination of many of the major Powers.  But we see that now some of these countries are not major powers, they have declined.  So either France, the United Kingdom, and even now the United States is losing interest, because maybe they have too many wars going on, maybe because of their domestic economy, maybe because they have less dependence on oil now, because they have to shale oil, they have other non-fossil energy coming now.  Even Russia has become interested, but Russia has also some constraints, economically constraints.  So I Believe by that process of elimination, we have to say China that perhaps has to take responsibility now, assume the leadership in bringing peace to the Middle East.  Because China meets all the qualifications, economically developed; with the military means growing now, because sometimes when you talk peace you have to be fully armed in order to gain the respect; and importantly a permeant member with veto power in the Security Council; the largest country in the world, of course in terms of population and you have to support of Asia, which I think is important, a new element that we can bring to the Middle East.

The Middle East in the past had been an area of influence of competition, not of the East, it's of the West, so the Middle East was the area for Western influence.  I think now things are changing, that people are looking more to the east, so the Middle East actually is part of the East.  And maybe countries from the East are able now to bring something more, a new perspective like this foundation that organized the conference today.  It has three themes, Peace, of course, but peace by itself cannot come about; it has to be economic development, people have to eat, they have to have jobs, they have to be satisfied, secure, that their families can survive, They have to have an economy; but again, economic development itself is not the answer alone, economic development has to come then with certain ideals, a belief, belief in what?

Belief in justice, belief in liberty, a belief in the equality of human beings, a belief that all men are created equal, that in an economic development, it's not for a group of people that become rich and rich and rich, and the economic gap that comes with economic development of the market only.  But China, of course has now come with a new theory -- market socialism, that means market forces, yes, but with social goals together with it.  So that kind of humanitarian ideals that we have economic development, good, but it has to achieve certain social goals to make the people satisfied.  That is good system to make them happy, satisfied, secure, and that then becomes the foundation for peace.  So it's just a circle, peace, development , happiness, people satisfaction bring peace, peace is the basis for economic development.  This is the kind of ancient thinking, that sees history in circles, what's your circles?  Westen thinking in the past has been linear, straight, okay, from this you move to here, then move to here, then move to here, and with some goal in the distant future.  But for us, I think we believe that history repeats itself.  You should not forget he past, although you are not tied to the past, but the past can come back again.  And the question of circle, the wheel, does not mean stationary, it doesn’t mean that things stay the same, the wheel moves forward also, but not flat like this.

It moves with everybody together, economic development, the people, the social, the ideals of the people in the mind that bring peace.  So those are the three things already identified by this conference by this foundation, this is the contribution I think that China can make now to this process.  It needs a new approach, It needs a new answer, It needs a country that shows it can do something that it cares for the people, Not because of economic interest only, not because of the fear of this and that, and not because it's close to home, relatively it's quite far for us in Asia, the Middle East We are not so concerned too much in the past, but it would be a good sign that we say “yes we can” for human beings, for people who are in distress, people who don't have hope for the future.

But I would add like just now, I talk about my adopted son Yassin, when we look at big things like this, Peace, Development, humanitarian goals, we should have a face of real people in mind, who are we helping? who are these people? who are they?  We can have big conference, we can have many VIPs come and talk, good, but does it help in fact practical way?  How about maybe we bring this Yassin out of Gaza?  At least one, two, three, four people from Syria?  Young people, train them here.  China gives them a new life, a new hope, teach them Chinese, it will be the language of the world in future.  Teach them how you can manage market force, how you can manage economic development, education, but still make the people equal, have equal opportunity for everybody, and no gaps.  this is the new vision I think that China can bring to the Middle East.

Mr. Chen:  Maybe just because of this our president Xi Jinping proposed “the Belt and Road” initiative.  It's just shows that different series, different thinking way of the human civilization.  I think what are you thinking and talking about the future coach civilization instructor, there are two ways, two directions. One is the westen way and the other is the easten way.  Easten way is just that you have talk about.  So our president Xi Jinping proposed “Belt and road initiative”, can you give some idea or view?  What will “Belt and road initiative” be for the poor countries along the line?

What's kind of opportunity for them?  And meanwhile, what measures can Chinese government take and pay much attention?  Can you give some suggestion?

Mr. Kobosak:  I think this is a new initiative, it's a vision that the world now needs a vision of what the future will be.  Many people are concerned about the future, what is coming in the future?  Uncertain, which causes a lot of insecurities. But this idea of “one destiny”, “common destiny with the belt and road”, this can be the answer.  To tell people we grow together, we develop together with win-win.  For the Belt and Road, we have to show the people that all those people along the way will benefit, and this is the concept of the belt.  It's not like before.  Before, the road benefits the start, and the end, from the start, they sell goods to here, the end, but along the way, nothing happens for the people, a lot of disruption.  But if you have the Belt also with the Road, it's the corridor that everybody can contribute.  I think this is the idea to bring people together, to have mutual interests, and then they can see there's a common destiny.  And the common destiny, again to come back to that idea. It is not start here or there, but series, a network of roads and belts, maritime also on the land as well, to cover many areas.  So before, some parts of the Middle East were bypassed, but with the idea of the Belt, it's not going to be bypassed, they'll be outlying linkages from the main road, and from the maritime also.  So I think we have to try to promote this, look, let's stop fighting, there's a common future, a common destiny.  And I think at the end of the day, I think it's must be in the mind of President Xi also, that everybody has the same dream.  Same dream for their family, for their village, community, for their nation.  A dream that people can live without suffering, without fighting, without death, with jobs of course, with income, the elder people have a social safety net for the elderly, the resources being used are not only for the present or just to make money, but the resources and environment kept for the coming generation.  So this is a common concept, a common Destiny, and mutual interest for everybody, which I think is a new idea that has to be promoted now.

Mr. Chen:  Yeah, you're saying very good, but in meanwhile we also see, in past two years we interviewed a lot of leaders of the different countries around Belt and Road line, including Nepal, India, Turkey, Cambodia, Laos, etc.

We interview them just to explain the Belt and Road initiative, maybe they have different understanding of the Chinese policies.  And we also have found in actual fact many countries joined Belt and Road initiative, but changed their mind.  For example one country now signed an agreement with China, and maybe some other days later, they they postponed or cancel this agreement.  In your mind, how do you comment on this phenomena?

Mr. Kobosak:  Well with governments, of course you have to deal.  So now I think that idea you have approached government, you have told them now let's do more people to people.  Along the road without regard to who they are, or what religion, what race, what got, where they belong to.  With individuals, I think is like a train, a people's train you go along, you pick up people, let them meet, let them talk.  New generation will forget for the time about government or official, they will think many things, many angles.  You can say, Okay, you take your time, you consider, you do this or that.  And the government can change, maybe the new government come in, you know, the coup d'etat, election or whatever, somebody die, they change, but what stays are the people.  And I think if China were to emphasize now, this is for the ordinary people, to give them opportunity, to give them a new life, to give them hope, to be able to have something that.  China has achieved her for own people, because in the history of the world, there has never been so fast within 10, 20 years, so many people who have been lifted out of poverty.  That has happened here, this is the example that you should say you want to bring to other parts of the world through the Belt and Road, through maritime belt, through the new silk road even Across the deserts into middle east.

Those borders, in the Middle East, for example are artificial borders, they were drawn by the western powers, the occupation powers.  Sometimes that is the problem, people fighting because of some invisible line.  Why is there separation what country, why?  So let's look beyond that then, now we're fighting only for piece of land.  But I have also in the Middle East two good friend, they are both dead before Yasser Arafat of Palestine.  One he gave me this robe, he said he had to fight, because he had nothing else, he had no home, no place to stay, no land.  At the same time, the Yitzhak Rabin, who got the Nobel Peace Prize,  he wrote a book,

he said “no place for small dreams”, to describe Israel, that territory.  So he's said in future we have to see, now they are fighting for land, but it's not enough land, and that land who drew the boundary?  This is belonged to Jordan, this belonged to Syria, this belonged to Iraq.  The outside people come and draw a line, and then these people are fighting, Continue to fight 40, 50 years.  But let's see technology, they say now to grow fruits, apple, tomato, oranges, you don't need land you just grow up like this with the new technology.  So maybe even the water will be available from the sea, you can pump up.

Other things, like sunlight from there, it's not just the land, the land is not even not suitable for agriculture, but they fight, keep fighting for it, and they have been told the land is important. Fighting for the land, land, homeland,fighting over small piece of land.  So let's see that is okay for emotion, it's important, but in the meantime we have to see the technology is moving so fast now, that is the hope.  Technology, technology, technology!

For example, now there is the new technology in maybe ten years, flying from Shanghai to Los Angeles in 30 minutes?  Okay!  You will be neighbors, you know, it's faster than going down the street to your home, you take a plane - go up and down, you may have to live together, you have to get on, you know?  So this is the new hope, stop the fighting, okay? For you know, over this city, this road, this piece of land.  There is a new technology coming.  And this friend of mine who has passed away, Prime Minister Yitzkah Rabin, he built a technology center, And gave it to the people there on the coast near Tel Aviv between the old city of Jaffar the old Palestinian capital and and Tel Aviv on the coast there.  He said technology can be the answer to solve all these problems.  Technology from where?  The new technology, new society, new community, new resources, from China.

Mr. Chen:  So the world is changing a lot, the mind of the people should be changed.  But What we found is some idea in someone's mind it's not changing.  For you see a famous scholar, Huntington, wrote a book you know, “the Clash of Civilization”.  Maybe it's someone's idea, what we talk about of the changing idea is not changing.  How do you think about this?

Mr. Kobosak:  Well, I don't think people cannot change.  I believe in change, I believe the people have the capacity to change.  And over history of civilization of human beings, they have changed.  Human beings can adapt more than any other creature, even for us in Thailand in southeast Asia, we believe human beings are the highest of the animals, that they have been blessed with understanding, and they are able to adapt and change.  So I think in future, people can change, people will change, it's according to the environment, the circumstances.  So if we create the choices, the environment, to say, look there is a better way, there's an option. And again back to the example of China, this is not the Washington consensus, this is not the kind of theory that has been spread for 40, 50 years, this is a new kind of thinking of how to organize society, how to provide for people to have sufficient economic well-being for education, for their children, and for their hope for the future, and how to use resources.  These are the new ideas and show to bring technology into helping these kinds of things.  Even for example like oil in Middle East, maybe that was the cause of so much conflict, but if new technology, you have the wind power you have the other new technology coming, maybe the oil will be no longer important now.  If that is the case, then we have to look at other things, So I think it's hopeful.  I think we have to keep this to say that, look, don't belong in the past, for example China has made a break with the past, a new country, new China, at the same time keeping the old tradition can select the good things from the past to keep, but not to be the past.

And for example, like Huntington, he was thinking Clash of Civilization, Islam and Christianity.  But Islam we have to remember they are about 1,000 years behind, historically behind the Christianity the year is still 1300, not 2018, or 2019. Almost 1,000 years ago, Christianity was like Islam, fighting each other.  Catholics, Protestants, slaughter in Europe fighting all the time 100 years more, it was a lot of killing, even in the second world war, You know, Germany and the Jews and they hate each other.  But now they have changed, the Europeans have changed, their minds become more adapted and changed.  The religion played more accepting, more change.  So one day even Islam, I think will ends fighting, they now they are fighting, fighting, they have the Shia, the Sunni, like the Protestant the Catholic, cannot accept each other.  But over time, given the time, things can change.  And nowadays, it doesn’t take 600, 700 years, because the change come so quickly.  So once the change come, innovation come, new things come, technology comes, I'm sure they can also change faster than the Christian world had changed.

So it's would be a clash in those terms, because they would move merge together.  Human beings will merge together, so at that is the kind of hope. So I think we have to be careful that these kinds of theories make people think in terms of only confrontation, and thinking that will lead to confrontation.  There is a backlash now against globalization, against opening up.  There's a fear of somebody becoming more powerful, have to keep them down, there's a sense of that, “oh, we are better our race is better”, we have to open it up, say no, I think.  For example, China can also say yes. We have some issue about terrorism you know in far away provinces near the Middle East, but we have to deal with that with imagination, with proper approach, not to be too extreme or violent, which in some of the western countries.  They were not able to deal with that second World War even before that, you see.

So I think now we have to have this kind of understanding, education, we have to talk.  And China is able now to bring people together, because the foundations, and they have that resources, backed by the companies, the state enterprises, and people are willing to come to talk.  Who would believe that, you know, in the past 10, 15 years?  

Middle East Peace would be here?  May 15 would be the Middle East peace day in Beijing, this has already been done three years, four years, five years, will be a tradition.  And if they say if your aim is to have this message, that at least one day stop killing, stop shooting, look at your children, look at the faces of the people, I think that will help.  Every little bit helps.

Mr. Chen:  So we have found that what President Xi has done in China and in the world.   it's something similar to just you have just talked about.  So in your mind, how would you comment on what the Chinese government have done?

Mr. Kobosak:  Yes, so again, a lot of the other have tried and failed.  They have a baggage, when you see them coming, “oh, he's going to talk about what?  Talk about oil”; he's going to this and that, He has supported this country in the past; he had fought this; he had, you know, sold the arms.  So, China is the only major country now that can go in almost to start again to a new actor.  So I think this is the opportunity, and now that we have a strong leadership, you have a continuity of leadership that nobody else has, nobody in the world else has this continuity, assured that you can deal with people.  And the people know, oh, that the words, the promises given by China, by the president of China, will be kept, that is very important.

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陈建成

陈建成

天空宽频电视台董事长
蔻博萨克

蔻博萨克

泰国外交部原副部长

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