与此同时，以色列前总理伊萨克·拉宾获得了诺贝尔和平奖，他写了一本书，把以色列那块土地形容为“没有小确幸梦想的容身之处”（No Room for Small Dreams: The Decisions That Made Israel Great ），他说，未来我们会看到，我们现在只是为了土地而战，但不会有“足够的”土地，谁划了土地的边界？这里属于约旦，这里属于叙利亚，这里属于伊拉克，外来的人来到这里，画出这些线，然后当地的人不断战斗，打了40年，50年。现在让我们看看技术发展，现在种植水果，苹果、番茄、橘子都不再需要土地，只需要用新的技术让它们生长，即使是水现在都可以从海里获得。那里的土地甚至不适合农业，不能耕种，但他们仍然为土地而战斗，反复被灌输“土地很重要”的观念，要为小片土地，为家园而斗争。
Mr. Chen: I heard what you made speech in the forum. That’s very wonderful, peace for the Middle East.
You see, in our country the people in China, when we think about Middle East, maybe it's words “tourism”. And mainly in Chinese people thinking, maybe it’s because of the oil, control of oil. And beside the Middle East countries, a lot of big power want to come. And then maybe one changed to another one. And we found now USA seems to withdraw from Middle East. In your mind, if UAS withdral from Middle East, who is the next one for that mediation of Middle East Peace?
Mr. Kobosak: Well, it has to be a superpower, It has to be a member of the Security Council of United Nations permanent member, who will have the ability and the influence to try to bring peace. Because that area had been under the jurisdiction before second world war of the United Nations, It was a trust territory. It had been of course under the domination of many of the major Powers. But we see that now some of these countries are not major powers, they have declined. So either France, the United Kingdom, and even now the United States is losing interest, because maybe they have too many wars going on, maybe because of their domestic economy, maybe because they have less dependence on oil now, because they have to shale oil, they have other non-fossil energy coming now. Even Russia has become interested, but Russia has also some constraints, economically constraints. So I Believe by that process of elimination, we have to say China that perhaps has to take responsibility now, assume the leadership in bringing peace to the Middle East. Because China meets all the qualifications, economically developed; with the military means growing now, because sometimes when you talk peace you have to be fully armed in order to gain the respect; and importantly a permeant member with veto power in the Security Council; the largest country in the world, of course in terms of population and you have to support of Asia, which I think is important, a new element that we can bring to the Middle East.
The Middle East in the past had been an area of influence of competition, not of the East, it's of the West, so the Middle East was the area for Western influence. I think now things are changing, that people are looking more to the east, so the Middle East actually is part of the East. And maybe countries from the East are able now to bring something more, a new perspective like this foundation that organized the conference today. It has three themes, Peace, of course, but peace by itself cannot come about; it has to be economic development, people have to eat, they have to have jobs, they have to be satisfied, secure, that their families can survive, They have to have an economy; but again, economic development itself is not the answer alone, economic development has to come then with certain ideals, a belief, belief in what?
Belief in justice, belief in liberty, a belief in the equality of human beings, a belief that all men are created equal, that in an economic development, it's not for a group of people that become rich and rich and rich, and the economic gap that comes with economic development of the market only. But China, of course has now come with a new theory -- market socialism, that means market forces, yes, but with social goals together with it. So that kind of humanitarian ideals that we have economic development, good, but it has to achieve certain social goals to make the people satisfied. That is good system to make them happy, satisfied, secure, and that then becomes the foundation for peace. So it's just a circle, peace, development , happiness, people satisfaction bring peace, peace is the basis for economic development. This is the kind of ancient thinking, that sees history in circles, what's your circles? Westen thinking in the past has been linear, straight, okay, from this you move to here, then move to here, then move to here, and with some goal in the distant future. But for us, I think we believe that history repeats itself. You should not forget he past, although you are not tied to the past, but the past can come back again. And the question of circle, the wheel, does not mean stationary, it doesn’t mean that things stay the same, the wheel moves forward also, but not flat like this.
It moves with everybody together, economic development, the people, the social, the ideals of the people in the mind that bring peace. So those are the three things already identified by this conference by this foundation, this is the contribution I think that China can make now to this process. It needs a new approach, It needs a new answer, It needs a country that shows it can do something that it cares for the people, Not because of economic interest only, not because of the fear of this and that, and not because it's close to home, relatively it's quite far for us in Asia, the Middle East We are not so concerned too much in the past, but it would be a good sign that we say “yes we can” for human beings, for people who are in distress, people who don't have hope for the future.
But I would add like just now, I talk about my adopted son Yassin, when we look at big things like this, Peace, Development, humanitarian goals, we should have a face of real people in mind, who are we helping? who are these people? who are they? We can have big conference, we can have many VIPs come and talk, good, but does it help in fact practical way? How about maybe we bring this Yassin out of Gaza? At least one, two, three, four people from Syria? Young people, train them here. China gives them a new life, a new hope, teach them Chinese, it will be the language of the world in future. Teach them how you can manage market force, how you can manage economic development, education, but still make the people equal, have equal opportunity for everybody, and no gaps. this is the new vision I think that China can bring to the Middle East.
Mr. Chen: Maybe just because of this our president Xi Jinping proposed “the Belt and Road” initiative. It's just shows that different series, different thinking way of the human civilization. I think what are you thinking and talking about the future coach civilization instructor, there are two ways, two directions. One is the westen way and the other is the easten way. Easten way is just that you have talk about. So our president Xi Jinping proposed “Belt and road initiative”, can you give some idea or view? What will “Belt and road initiative” be for the poor countries along the line?
What's kind of opportunity for them? And meanwhile, what measures can Chinese government take and pay much attention? Can you give some suggestion?
Mr. Kobosak: I think this is a new initiative, it's a vision that the world now needs a vision of what the future will be. Many people are concerned about the future, what is coming in the future? Uncertain, which causes a lot of insecurities. But this idea of “one destiny”, “common destiny with the belt and road”, this can be the answer. To tell people we grow together, we develop together with win-win. For the Belt and Road, we have to show the people that all those people along the way will benefit, and this is the concept of the belt. It's not like before. Before, the road benefits the start, and the end, from the start, they sell goods to here, the end, but along the way, nothing happens for the people, a lot of disruption. But if you have the Belt also with the Road, it's the corridor that everybody can contribute. I think this is the idea to bring people together, to have mutual interests, and then they can see there's a common destiny. And the common destiny, again to come back to that idea. It is not start here or there, but series, a network of roads and belts, maritime also on the land as well, to cover many areas. So before, some parts of the Middle East were bypassed, but with the idea of the Belt, it's not going to be bypassed, they'll be outlying linkages from the main road, and from the maritime also. So I think we have to try to promote this, look, let's stop fighting, there's a common future, a common destiny. And I think at the end of the day, I think it's must be in the mind of President Xi also, that everybody has the same dream. Same dream for their family, for their village, community, for their nation. A dream that people can live without suffering, without fighting, without death, with jobs of course, with income, the elder people have a social safety net for the elderly, the resources being used are not only for the present or just to make money, but the resources and environment kept for the coming generation. So this is a common concept, a common Destiny, and mutual interest for everybody, which I think is a new idea that has to be promoted now.
Mr. Chen: Yeah, you're saying very good, but in meanwhile we also see, in past two years we interviewed a lot of leaders of the different countries around Belt and Road line, including Nepal, India, Turkey, Cambodia, Laos, etc.
We interview them just to explain the Belt and Road initiative, maybe they have different understanding of the Chinese policies. And we also have found in actual fact many countries joined Belt and Road initiative, but changed their mind. For example one country now signed an agreement with China, and maybe some other days later, they they postponed or cancel this agreement. In your mind, how do you comment on this phenomena?
Mr. Kobosak: Well with governments, of course you have to deal. So now I think that idea you have approached government, you have told them now let's do more people to people. Along the road without regard to who they are, or what religion, what race, what got, where they belong to. With individuals, I think is like a train, a people's train you go along, you pick up people, let them meet, let them talk. New generation will forget for the time about government or official, they will think many things, many angles. You can say, Okay, you take your time, you consider, you do this or that. And the government can change, maybe the new government come in, you know, the coup d'etat, election or whatever, somebody die, they change, but what stays are the people. And I think if China were to emphasize now, this is for the ordinary people, to give them opportunity, to give them a new life, to give them hope, to be able to have something that. China has achieved her for own people, because in the history of the world, there has never been so fast within 10, 20 years, so many people who have been lifted out of poverty. That has happened here, this is the example that you should say you want to bring to other parts of the world through the Belt and Road, through maritime belt, through the new silk road even Across the deserts into middle east.
Those borders, in the Middle East, for example are artificial borders, they were drawn by the western powers, the occupation powers. Sometimes that is the problem, people fighting because of some invisible line. Why is there separation what country, why? So let's look beyond that then, now we're fighting only for piece of land. But I have also in the Middle East two good friend, they are both dead before Yasser Arafat of Palestine. One he gave me this robe, he said he had to fight, because he had nothing else, he had no home, no place to stay, no land. At the same time, the Yitzhak Rabin, who got the Nobel Peace Prize, he wrote a book,
he said “no place for small dreams”, to describe Israel, that territory. So he's said in future we have to see, now they are fighting for land, but it's not enough land, and that land who drew the boundary? This is belonged to Jordan, this belonged to Syria, this belonged to Iraq. The outside people come and draw a line, and then these people are fighting, Continue to fight 40, 50 years. But let's see technology, they say now to grow fruits, apple, tomato, oranges, you don't need land you just grow up like this with the new technology. So maybe even the water will be available from the sea, you can pump up.
Other things, like sunlight from there, it's not just the land, the land is not even not suitable for agriculture, but they fight, keep fighting for it, and they have been told the land is important. Fighting for the land, land, homeland,fighting over small piece of land. So let's see that is okay for emotion, it's important, but in the meantime we have to see the technology is moving so fast now, that is the hope. Technology, technology, technology!
For example, now there is the new technology in maybe ten years, flying from Shanghai to Los Angeles in 30 minutes? Okay! You will be neighbors, you know, it's faster than going down the street to your home, you take a plane - go up and down, you may have to live together, you have to get on, you know? So this is the new hope, stop the fighting, okay? For you know, over this city, this road, this piece of land. There is a new technology coming. And this friend of mine who has passed away, Prime Minister Yitzkah Rabin, he built a technology center, And gave it to the people there on the coast near Tel Aviv between the old city of Jaffar the old Palestinian capital and and Tel Aviv on the coast there. He said technology can be the answer to solve all these problems. Technology from where? The new technology, new society, new community, new resources, from China.
Mr. Chen: So the world is changing a lot, the mind of the people should be changed. But What we found is some idea in someone's mind it's not changing. For you see a famous scholar, Huntington, wrote a book you know, “the Clash of Civilization”. Maybe it's someone's idea, what we talk about of the changing idea is not changing. How do you think about this?
Mr. Kobosak: Well, I don't think people cannot change. I believe in change, I believe the people have the capacity to change. And over history of civilization of human beings, they have changed. Human beings can adapt more than any other creature, even for us in Thailand in southeast Asia, we believe human beings are the highest of the animals, that they have been blessed with understanding, and they are able to adapt and change. So I think in future, people can change, people will change, it's according to the environment, the circumstances. So if we create the choices, the environment, to say, look there is a better way, there's an option. And again back to the example of China, this is not the Washington consensus, this is not the kind of theory that has been spread for 40, 50 years, this is a new kind of thinking of how to organize society, how to provide for people to have sufficient economic well-being for education, for their children, and for their hope for the future, and how to use resources. These are the new ideas and show to bring technology into helping these kinds of things. Even for example like oil in Middle East, maybe that was the cause of so much conflict, but if new technology, you have the wind power you have the other new technology coming, maybe the oil will be no longer important now. If that is the case, then we have to look at other things, So I think it's hopeful. I think we have to keep this to say that, look, don't belong in the past, for example China has made a break with the past, a new country, new China, at the same time keeping the old tradition can select the good things from the past to keep, but not to be the past.
And for example, like Huntington, he was thinking Clash of Civilization, Islam and Christianity. But Islam we have to remember they are about 1,000 years behind, historically behind the Christianity the year is still 1300, not 2018, or 2019. Almost 1,000 years ago, Christianity was like Islam, fighting each other. Catholics, Protestants, slaughter in Europe fighting all the time 100 years more, it was a lot of killing, even in the second world war, You know, Germany and the Jews and they hate each other. But now they have changed, the Europeans have changed, their minds become more adapted and changed. The religion played more accepting, more change. So one day even Islam, I think will ends fighting, they now they are fighting, fighting, they have the Shia, the Sunni, like the Protestant the Catholic, cannot accept each other. But over time, given the time, things can change. And nowadays, it doesn’t take 600, 700 years, because the change come so quickly. So once the change come, innovation come, new things come, technology comes, I'm sure they can also change faster than the Christian world had changed.
So it's would be a clash in those terms, because they would move merge together. Human beings will merge together, so at that is the kind of hope. So I think we have to be careful that these kinds of theories make people think in terms of only confrontation, and thinking that will lead to confrontation. There is a backlash now against globalization, against opening up. There's a fear of somebody becoming more powerful, have to keep them down, there's a sense of that, “oh, we are better our race is better”, we have to open it up, say no, I think. For example, China can also say yes. We have some issue about terrorism you know in far away provinces near the Middle East, but we have to deal with that with imagination, with proper approach, not to be too extreme or violent, which in some of the western countries. They were not able to deal with that second World War even before that, you see.
So I think now we have to have this kind of understanding, education, we have to talk. And China is able now to bring people together, because the foundations, and they have that resources, backed by the companies, the state enterprises, and people are willing to come to talk. Who would believe that, you know, in the past 10, 15 years?
Middle East Peace would be here? May 15 would be the Middle East peace day in Beijing, this has already been done three years, four years, five years, will be a tradition. And if they say if your aim is to have this message, that at least one day stop killing, stop shooting, look at your children, look at the faces of the people, I think that will help. Every little bit helps.
Mr. Chen: So we have found that what President Xi has done in China and in the world. it's something similar to just you have just talked about. So in your mind, how would you comment on what the Chinese government have done?
Mr. Kobosak: Yes, so again, a lot of the other have tried and failed. They have a baggage, when you see them coming, “oh, he's going to talk about what? Talk about oil”; he's going to this and that, He has supported this country in the past; he had fought this; he had, you know, sold the arms. So, China is the only major country now that can go in almost to start again to a new actor. So I think this is the opportunity, and now that we have a strong leadership, you have a continuity of leadership that nobody else has, nobody in the world else has this continuity, assured that you can deal with people. And the people know, oh, that the words, the promises given by China, by the president of China, will be kept, that is very important.